“The Journey Is the Point,
Because God’s Project Is Me” 

Interviewer:
The main reason I wanted to gather stories for The Open Heart initiative is that I hoped they could be a source of inspiration for others going through the same struggle. I remember when I was in the middle of it myself, one of the things that really helped was hearing the story of my spiritual mentor. When he spoke to me, he told me he had gone through the exact same experience, had felt the same emotions, but he also shared how, through his journey, he discovered the all-encompassing love of God. A love that includes him, his difference, his sins, all of it. And that had a huge impact on me. Just knowing that someone else had been through this and arrived at a different outcome —that it’s not always about condemnation or fear of hell— made such a difference. 

I think a lot of Christians, especially in traditional churches —and I’ll mention my own, the Coptic Orthodox Church— live with this fear. Fear of judgment shows up constantly: in the prayers, the hymns, the sermons. I remember that during that period of my life, this fear was what made me most sad, and it stopped me from truly experiencing the joy of Christ’s grace. There were these really gloomy hymns, all about guilt and sin. I understand that it’s important for us to be aware of our sins — I’m not saying that accepting ourselves or rejoicing in the grace and freedom of Christ means we accept sin. No. Being responsible in the face of sin is very important. But at the same time, that can’t be the only focus. It shouldn’t be what keeps me stuck in sadness and depression instead of letting me rejoice in the grace and freedom Christ offers. 

That’s why I think there are key turning points we can focus on when telling this kind of story. First: that early feeling of “I’m different.” That sense of desiring something the Bible and the Church say is sinful, wrong, or shameful. 
Then: reaching the realization that this isn’t a disease. It’s not something I’m meant to change, because it won’t change.
And finally, coming to know that God created me this way. That He “knit me together wonderfully,” as the Psalm says. That He rejoices in me. That He made me like this — and that it’s completely natural to live out this difference in Him and with Him.

Does that outline give you a clearer idea of where we might start the story?

Narrator:
I think I could sense my difference, even if I didn’t understand it or label it as such. It started when I was very young, maybe five or six years old. It was clear to me that I preferred spending time with girls, joining in their activities, and that I felt a different kind of attraction toward boys. I was clearly more emotional than most boys. I expressed myself more, I connected more easily with girls — all of that was obvious to me from the beginning. And yet, I didn’t think of it as being different. That’s just how I was. It felt normal. 

And I think a big reason why it felt normal to me was because I grew up watching Oprah Winfrey. Since I was in middle school or so, I watched her show regularly. Oprah often had gay guests on her program, and I remember this one episode where she talked about the Queen Boat incident. She invited people to speak about it. And I remember, in my mind at the time, it didn’t feel strange or wrong. I didn’t see it as something to be condemned. I just saw it as something ordinary. 

Back then, Oprah helped me see myself in the people she featured on her show. Around that same time, in middle school, I also started exploring myself more. You know how boys at that age start exploring each other...

Interviewer:
Hormones...

Narrator:
Yeah, exactly, that’s when all the hormones start kicking in, and they start bouncing them off each other. For me, that was kind of an opportunity — a space where I could explore myself, and explore other boys, especially when it came to that side of things…

Interviewer:
I want to bring in two things here that I think are really important in this context, especially at that stage: one is faith, in general, but also the fact that your dad is a pastor…

Narrator:
At that time, I didn’t really have much of a struggle when it came to faith, because, honestly, my faith wasn’t real yet. Back then, my faith was more about the fact that my dad was a pastor. So I was doing all the “church things,” practicing faith on one side, and doing whatever I wanted on the other…

Interviewer:
So at that point, there wasn’t much of a struggle, because faith itself hadn’t really formed yet. You weren’t really thinking about what God thinks or cares about…

Narrator:
Exactly. Back then, it wasn’t a spiritual struggle; it was more of a societal one. Like, in high school, there was this idea that maybe I could just suppress all of it and marry a woman, just to fit into society. But it was just a thought.
And also in high school, that was probably when I started discovering more about myself, more deeply.
As for the actual struggle, the spiritual one, the one tied to faith…

Interviewer:
When did that part start for you, the faith you now see as the beginning of your real spiritual journey? That deeper knowing of God that’s become rooted in you today?

Narrator:
It was about 8 years ago, I was around 22. I remember the moment exactly. It was during a worship set led by a well-known singer. She was talking about something really simple, she said, “Just ask God to show you how He sees you.”
And for some reason, that broke something open inside me.
When I asked that —when I prayed it— it opened up so much in me.
I believe God prepares us for moments like that. A lot of things had happened that made my heart ready to really hear that message at that exact time.
And I believe… there’s not just one moment when our hearts open to God. It’s a journey, we open our hearts to Him step by step, and He starts changing things in us, breaking down walls, so we can open our hearts even more… and more.
But that was the turning point for me. 

A little before that, I had been struggling with the image of God as harsh, angry, especially the Old Testament God. Part of it was a reaction against my upbringing.
But then I started to explore more deeply, to understand the theological context of the Old Testament, and the question of who God really is, whether He had changed between the two Testaments…
And eventually, I came back to believing in Christianity specifically. 

But I want to say —and I hope I’m being completely honest— I’ve never had a real conflict between my sexuality and my faith. 

Interviewer:
So how? I feel like that’s such an important question to reflect on.
How is it that, despite all the scriptures used by religious leaders and the Church to condemn homosexuality, to frame it as immoral, un-Christian, and unacceptable in the eyes of God, you didn’t experience a conflict? 

Narrator:
I was never interested in a God who wanted me to change.
So my approach toward Christianity was never about, “I want to change myself to please You.”
It was about, “You love me as I am — and that’s who I believe You are.”

Interviewer:
There’s something I’ve been thinking about,  and I want to try to think through it from the mindset of someone who has really internalized what religious leaders say, someone who sees God through their words and the image they present.
A lot of the ideas we carry as believers about who God is… they’re not always about the true God revealed through Jesus and Scripture; they’re more about how we, as humans, perceive God. 

So when you said, “God loves me as I am, and He doesn’t want me to change”… I want to sit with that a bit. Because yes — God indeed loves us as we are. But Scripture also speaks a lot about change:
“Be transformed by the renewing of your mind.”
“Do not conform to the patterns of this world.”

And many people use that phrase: “the patterns of this world”, to talk about homosexuality, or to describe anyone who’s at peace with being queer. They point to Western societies, queer representation in shows like Netflix, and say that is what we’re not supposed to conform to. That we need to be different, to be transformed, to renew our minds. 

So… the idea of change is there in the Bible. 

What made you feel that —for you— God wasn’t asking you to change this?
 

Narrator:
The way I approached faith — when I came to God — was like this:
“Look, if You want me to change in order to come to You, I’m not coming.”
I was coming to be accepted, to be loved — that’s what You promised.
So I wasn’t going to come from a world that already rejected me and imposed standards I could never live up to, and then find You doing the same. That was my posture from the very beginning:
Not only did You accept me as I am, but You also saw beauty in me, goodness that I couldn’t even see in myself.

I think that because of the struggles we go through, the trauma, the distorted relationships we grow up with; we never fully experience God’s love.
But bit by bit, He starts to break down those walls so we can begin to experience it.
There was a time when I would say to myself, “God loves me as I am”, but I hadn’t yet truly tasted that unconditional love.
Then as I went deeper, I began to discover it more and more.

In the beginning, my pursuit of God was free of shame; like, “I’m fine, and You’re just supposed to love me as I am.”
But then I realized that even behind that confidence… there was still shame.
It was hiding behind the claim that there was no shame.
And the more I came face to face with that shame —and laid it before Him— the more I discovered His love.
And the more I discovered that love, the more it freed me from shame. 

I think the difference with the kind of “change” that Christianity offers is this:
It’s not a condition for love.
It is what love does.
Change that comes from grace.

Grace… that’s such a big word.
I think we live in a culture that keeps telling us: You have to work on yourself, fix yourself, do the right things — and then you’ll be worthy. Then you’ll deserve grace.
But grace says: “My beloved, you can’t do anything without Me in the first place.”

Even though I didn’t fully understand that when I first came to God, that was still the approach I walked in with:
“You’re going to love me as I am. And if I need to change, Your love will be what changes me.”

And I began to understand, little by little, that while Christianity is for a body —for a community— it is also deeply personal.
A personal relationship.
God doesn’t just speak to people in general.
God speaks to me. Personally.
He doesn’t say to all of us, “You all need to do one, two, three…”
He says to me: “These are the one, two, three in your life — and here’s how we’ll walk through them together.”

Interviewer:
I think that’s exactly what the law of Christ is, not a law for “the people” as a whole, but something deeply personal. This incredibly personal relationship.

Narrator:
Exactly, like, “Come on, let’s walk this journey together…”
It doesn’t mean I’m going to go against what the Bible says; it just means that the journey Scripture invites us into will be shaped around me.
It will speak to me in my own personal, unique situation. 

When I first came to God, that “shameless” state I was in, it made me very stubborn about a lot of things.
Like, “What I’m doing is right, and you’re supposed to accept me as I am.”
But like I said earlier, once you go deeper into God’s love, once you truly open yourself to Him…
He does change you.
He really does break things inside of you, in the best way. He works on you. 

There were actually a lot of things I came in holding tightly, saying, “No, I don’t want this to change.”
But then He started changing them.
And I became so at peace with that. With Him working, shifting, and showing me that He had something else in mind. 

So I think the key is not: Does He accept me or not?
Or: Does He want me to change or not?
Or: Does He approve of my relationships or not?
The key is: Go to Him, and then figure it out together. 

I’ve seen that happen with so many people around me.
They came to Him just as they were, and then they started the journey together. 

If you’re walking with Him sincerely, honestly, always checking yourself, making sure you’re not putting yourself first, but putting Him first;
He will work on you.
He will change things.
And you’ll walk your own unique path with Him. 

There isn’t one model we all have to follow...

Interviewer:
There’s no such thing as a perfect spiritual life...

Narrator:
Totally. Absolutely.
And honestly —beyond just homosexuality— I’m surrounded by believers who live in completely different ways from one another.
They serve God, they glorify Him, each in their own way.
And still, they all experience His grace… His transformation. 

At the end of the day, I am God’s project, not the things I do.
So if what I’m experiencing is transformation… then that’s what He wants.
Even if it doesn’t look like someone else’s.

I don’t know... maybe we’ve drifted a little off-topic…

Interviewer:
What you’re saying is actually really important.
But right now, I’m thinking about the person who’s still stuck in that fear.
Someone who feels like they just can’t take the risk of ending up in hell, just because someone came along and told them, “This isn’t a sin.”

Because all their life, they’ve been told it is a sin.
All their life, they’ve heard that “people like that” share the same fate as the people of Sodom.
Someone like that — who’s lived with that fear, with that deep sense of not being accepted — and who truly believes that their difference is the result of a psychological disorder:
Someone whose father was cold or absent, whose mother was controlling — the kind of narrative people like Awsam Wasfi and others keep repeating.
And so often, they use the Bible — they use Christianity — to reinforce that story. For a long time, it was queer Christians who were especially targeted by that narrative. 

What do you think that person needs to hear?
The thing that could help them realize: That’s not true. That story is a lie.

Narrator:
Look, I think it’s rare for this kind of struggle to be purely intellectual.
There’s almost always something deeper behind it, something emotional, something in the heart.
Sure, we could sit and talk about all the biblical texts and how they’ve been interpreted in more than one way.
We could bring up all the studies that show homosexuality isn’t a disorder, or a disease, or a dysfunction.
We could talk about how conversion therapy is harmful and how it leads to deep psychological damage and depression.
We could even point to all the people who thought they had been “healed”, only to realize, years later, that nothing had really changed. 

We could do all of that, if that’s actually what someone is looking for. 

Interviewer:
But you see it as something deeper than just stating the facts.

Narrator:
Exactly.
I mean, maybe some people do need all that.
But from what I’ve seen, in my own life, and in the lives of others around me, the real issue isn’t about the facts.
It’s not about information.
You don’t need research and evidence as much as you need to love yourself, and to believe that God loves you.
And you can’t do that if you’re trying to “get fixed” just so you can be worthy to come to Him.

No. You go to Him first.
Then you figure out with Him if there’s anything that needs healing. 

And what if it is a sin?
Okay, let’s say it is.
The Bible says none of us is without sin.
“All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”
And it also says that sin isn’t ranked, there’s no such thing as “major sins” and “minor sins.”
Maybe the Church or the people around us act like some sins are worse than others, but in God’s eyes, it’s all the same. 

So what if it’s a sin?
We all sin.
The person who’s telling you it’s a sin, they sin too.
And you’ve got other sins in your life you’re not obsessing over like this one.
Why is this one the thing you’re fixated on? 

It’s mostly because of shame.
Because of rejection from the Church, and from society, too.
People —and the Church— have painted it as something monstrous. As this huge sin.

Okay. So what if it is a sin?
Go to Him.
There are people inside the Church who are sinning too.
Will He change you?
Maybe.
Maybe not.
We don’t know.
But go to Him.
Say to Him: “They’re saying this is a sin, what do You think?”

And if it is a sin, then ask Him: “How do I walk with this in a healthy way?
If it is sin — how do You want me to deal with it?”

Interviewer:
I remember Martin Luther, he used to say,
"Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong and many… but let your trust in Christ be stronger and greater still. Rejoice in Christ, who triumphs over sin and death."
Thank you so much for this conversation.
It was rich and truly meaningful, even for me, personally.
I’m grateful for so many ideas you shared, like surrendering and leaving it up to Him to decide what He wants for our lives. 

Narrator:
Surrendering our lives to Him so that He decides…
It might sound easy when we say it, but in reality, it’s one of the hardest things.
Let me quote Jeremiah 17:9, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. Who can understand it?”
There are so many times when we think we’ve surrendered, but we haven’t.
We’re just convincing ourselves.
Convincing ourselves that we’re doing what He wants — that we’re living out His will. 

Sometimes our emotions lead us toward certain choices, and they seem so logical, so reasonable,
but even then, our hearts can deceive us. 

So it’s always important to come back to Him and say,
"I know my heart is deceitful. Clean it. Purify it."

And it’s a journey.
A slow one. It takes years.
I’ve walked through years of it, and I’m sure there are many more years ahead.
It’s a never-ending journey. 

But that’s the whole point.
That is the story.
It’s about the journey, what He’s doing in this heart, in this person.
That’s the “weight of glory” Paul was talking about. 

If we think the most important thing is how we live, or what we do…
That’s not it.
The most important thing is our relationship with Him.
The point is what He’s doing in me, how He’s changing me, and how that transformation shines with glory. 

Interviewer:
Amen.

Narrator:
Amen.

The interview was recorded in Egyptian Arabic and translated into English.